Wednesday 6 June 2012

Blast of Hate

This blog is a personal exploration of the phenomenon of hate. I intend to start with a reading of 1984 followed by The Protocol.

I also intend to bring in Doris Lessing's "The Four Gated City", the final volume of her Children of Violence series, where Martha goes on an inner exploration and meets the "Hater"

Funny how I get affected by words of hate when it is directed against any other person but am cool when it is against me. How I am affected by hateful words even when I know that it is fake.

Finally I intend to take on the Indian Hate Industry.

From 1984 (p15 Penguin edition) describing two minute hate :
The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge-hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current,turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. 
Then follows an interesting observation
And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blow lamp...
..It was even possible at moments to switch one's hatred this way or that by a voluntary act. 
From The Four Gated City page 554
For some time now Martha was stuck. What was happening was something like this. She would discover herself uttering slogan-like phrases, or feeling emotions, which were the opposite of what she,the sane and rational Martha believed. For instance, she would find herself using the language of anti-semitism, first the sly subtle approaches to anti-semitism,which then worsened, so that for a few hours she was sounding like Goebbels. In a panic she floundered about in a total loss of her own personality. For she would retrieve from her own depths a phrase or an idea which embodied what she thought,but it would at once be swallowed by its shadow. This plunged her into a violent sense of fright and shame.Then she saw this was more like an embarrassment, almost a social embarrassment, as if she were being caught out in a social gaffe, which she was afraid of people discovering. She became ashamed (really ashamed) of her own triviality. Before this could be understood, and worked through, she was switched off into a hatred against black people. Then, fast, she watched herself using the languages and emotions of hatred of black people for white people, and of white people for black; of Germans and of Jews, and of Arabs and of the English -etc. etc. Until her chattering mind and the 'television set' was like a hate programme arranged for the pleasure of some international lunatic.
Why is it that it takes me so long for me to understand something so perfecctly obvious? I'm so stupid. Of course : I am switched in to Hating, which is the underside of all this lovely liberalism. But just because we are all such lovely liberals it doesnt mean . . . Why I don't  . . . it's because I keep forgetting I can't say, reasonable, civilized, etc. etc. Thinking that I am. I am what the human race is.  I am 'The Germans are the mirror and catalyst of Europe' and also : 'Dirty Hun, Filthy Nazi'.
Oh God, I'm so tired. How many volts all the time?
Shrieking self-pity and hysteria.
Is this what all those books call 'the pairs of opposites'?
Love, Hate, black, white, good, bad, man, woman. 
8th June

I do not have to laboriously type out everything. e book is available The Four Gated City .

13th Sept.

22/D-68
SEP 10, 2012
04:09 PM
The commentary is cogent and well-argued but unfortunately biased. It is obvious that attempting to somehow, anyhow justify the ongoing travails of Assam as "Muslims vs. Bad Guys" will find few takers (or many takers, depending on your viewpoint).
In a previous post I had compared the columnist to Arundhati Roy. I now apologise as Ms.Saikia is certainly less verbose and writes far better English. I do wonder whether Ms.Saikia would be able to extend Ms.Roy's "Dongria Kondh tribals vs. Bad Guys" argument of the Niyamgiri agitation to the present scenario vis-a-vis tribal communities in Assam.
The fact that the immigrants today (let us avoid the word "illegal" which raises Ms.Saikia's hackles) are Muslims is because the East Pakistani Hindus were expelled by Yahya Khan and Tikka Khan back in 1970-71. That itself proves that they were seeking asylum from almost certain annihilation. India's gesture in opening her arms to these people was motivated by humanism, inspite of the tremendous economic cost. Why they refused, in the main, to return to the newly created Bangladesh is perhaps a question best left unasked.
If today Bangladesh has a higher standard of living than India, it does beg the question why Bangladeshis are motivated to journey across the border to a presumably hostile environment. Do we really have mountains of milk and butter here in India? Can we afford the luxury of inorganic population growth? And finally, what exactly does Indian civil society feel about the protection of tribal rights?
GAURAB BANERJEE
KOLKATA, INDIA





23/D-72
SEP 10, 2012
04:55 PM
PEOPLE from ASSAM can NOT buy land and live in MIZORAM, NAGALAND, MANIPUR, MEGHALAYA & ARUNACHAL PRADESH although all these states were part of ASSAM from 1947 till they were made separate states. Add J&K also to that list. But people from all these SIX states can buy land and live in ASSAM. ---------------------------- YASMIN "MOHTRAMA" now says that even BANGLADESHIS have legitimate right to buy/ FORCIBLY OCCUPY LAND in ASSAM and live there. Why this desparity MOHTRAMA??? Will the PSEUDO- SECULARIST make a law that allows all Indians to live in any part of India from J&K to Kanyakumari in Tamil Nadu and Arunachal Pradesh to Gujarat before advocating FREE ACCESS to BANGLADESHIS into ASSAM.
CHARAN DEWRY
GUWAHATI, INDIA


30/D-14
SEP 11, 2012
07:39 AM
"The fact that the immigrants today (let us avoid the word "illegal" which raises Ms.Saikia's hackles) are Muslims is because the East Pakistani Hindus were expelled by Yahya Khan and Tikka Khan back in 1970-71. " Gaurab Banerjee
No, it is because the Hindus of Bangladesh were exterminated by the Pakistani army in 1971. Here is the testimony of Colonel Nadir Ali who was in the Pakistani army and fought in East Pakistan in 1971:
http://www.viewpointonline.net/a-khaki-dissident-on-1971.html
"..My first action was in mid April 1971. “It is Mujib-ur-Rahman’s home district. It is a hard area. Kill as many bastards as you can and make sure there is no Hindu left alive,” I was ordered.
“Sir, I do not kill unarmed civilians who do not fire at me,” I replied.
“Kill the Hindus. It is an order for everyone. Don’t show me your commando finesse!”.
....
An order was given to kill the Hindus. I received the same order many times and was reminded of it . The West Pakistani soldiery considered that Kosher. The Hamood Ur Rehman Commission Report mentions this order. Of the ninety-three lakh (9.3 million) refugees in India, ninety lakh were Hindus ..."
THE WEST PAKISTANI SOLDIERY CONSIDERED IT KOSHER TO MURDER ALL THE HINDUS.
Why is this so difficult for us stupid Hindus to comprehend? This is not some Sanghi or RSS type - this is a Pakistani colonel writing for a Pakistani blog.
Kill 1000 Muslims in Gujarat and 10 years later, Muslims and sickulars cannot stop talking about "genocide".
Kill millions of Hindus in Pakistan and forcibly convert the rest, and we Hindus look away and pretend not to know what happened there. As the British said, the Hindoo has a sense of the past but no sense of history.
Take a good look at what is happening in Pakistan to the last remaining Hindus there. That is what is in store for us in 25 years time if we don't take control of our country.
FEDUP INDIAN
HYDERABAD, INDIA



31/D-28
SEP 11, 2012
10:44 AM
 ---Take a good look at what is happening in Pakistan to the last remaining Hindus there. That is what is in store for us in 25 years time if we don't take control of our country.----
Totally agree Fedupindian- in fact this scary scenario is already happening in Kerala. From today's Mathrubhoomi- (a well respected , left leaning & mass circulated Malayalam newspapr) http://www.mathrubhumi.com/online/malayalam/news/story/1817447/2012-09-11/kerala
Translation of the news report : - “There is a special Taliban ‘flying squad’ operating in Kerala, this group is funded/trained by popular front of India and the members are always armed and ready to be on the move within a short notice. There are dedicated mobile numbers and these numbers can be found on the side streets and city walls (Kerala cities) . Popular Front is running study classes for minority school students and they are being taught that it is a sin to befriend kafirs and non-believers. If anyone notices a Muslim and non Muslim talking in a public place or indulging in any other non Islamic practices anywhere in the state then they are to call this dedicated numbers. An armed flying squad will be despatched and they will reach the place within few minutes in bikes to attack the non muslim. This special Taliban squad is suspected to be behind many “moral police’ attacks in the state and recent murder of 2 ABVP activists in the state were suspected to be conducted by these Taliban squad!! “
And this happening in a state where Muslims are only 27% of the total population!!! !!
PRASANTH
MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA

32/D-51
SEP 11, 2012
02:25 PM
 Fedup Indian>>
Kill 1000 Muslims in Gujarat and 10 years later, Muslims and sickulars cannot stop talking about "genocide".
Kill millions of Hindus in Pakistan and forcibly convert the rest, and we Hindus look away and pretend not to know what happened there.
Similar points have been raised by others in this forum. Anders Breivik's 'A European Declaration of Independence' is full of similar rant. Since most of us, if not all, do not want another "genocide", muslim or hindu, let us debate atleast the relationship between facts and the theory that we build on those and the relationship between our theories and our actions. 
>>Muslims and sickulars<<
According to you, it is understandable if muslims remember the Gujarat carnage, but if a hindu does so, is sick, sickular. So who is a normal hindu? One who sings paeans to the vikas brought to Gujarat, the land of beauty conscious who starve themselves to the status of malnourished?
In India we have a long history of communal confrontation between different communities. In the past three decades we have had three major incidents, in Delhi(1984), Bombay(1992/3) and Gujarat (2002). Why are these remembered "more" than the Nellie(1983) massacre where the death toll was higher than the other three?
We remember that which we understand. 1984 anti sikh pogrom was organized and presided over by the ruling Congress Party and Bombay riots and Gujarat pogrom were fall outs of Ram Janma Bhoomi-Babri Masjid agitation. Activism of citizens groups was not as well organized in 1984 or in 1992/3 as in 2002. About Bangladesh genocide, after 40 years, trial is underway. It seems past remains 'undead' till it is properly understood after which presumably it can be given a decent burial. Till then it casts its shadows on the present.
So, Fedup, though you are raising important issues, you are joining dots in the wrong way.
R. SAROJA
BOMBAY, INDIA

33/D-68
SEP 11, 2012
05:10 PM
The Indians who wants to understand the plight of HINDUS if ever they become MINORITY in India needs to look no further than Pakistan & Bangladesh. After all the MUSLIMS OF PAKISTAN & BANGLADESH were INDIAN MUSLIMS till 15 August 1947, who as per the SECULAR HISTORIANS of India "is supposed to have" lived 500-600's of years GLORIOUS & PEACEFUL life under the MUSLIM RULERS of India. ------------- But in just 65 years of the existance of PAKISTAN & Bangladesh, the HINDUS who "supposedly lived peacefully in ISLAMIC RULE" have been HOUNDED (HUNTED???) to exinction. Remeber, the MUSLIMS who opted to stay back in India in 1947 and who form the present day Indian Muslims, is the same stock of Muslims who opted for Pak/ Bangla in 1947. How can their approach to Hindus be drastically different than the PAKI INDIAN MUSLIMS???? HINDUS have been chased out of the only area in India which has a MUSLIM MAJORITY- KASHMIR. 
CHARAN DEWRY
GUWAHATI, INDIA

34/D-71
SEP 11, 2012
06:04 PM
 @R. SAROJA-
Your assertion that riot happen between all communities and we selectively remember some riots are false....The point here is NOT Riots... the big question is what happens (to the non islamic population) once the demography is changed... Great to know that some trial is going on in Bangladesh now,,,, after the population of Hindus came down from 40%ish to single digit percentile!!
Fedupindian is asking a very relevant and hugely important question, don't try to deflect this question by talking about some riots..... the question basically is this
" What is the future of non Muslims(including Hindus) in India if India (or at least parts of it ) were to become Muslim majority??
This is not a hypothetical question- the trend is already here....
Now to answer this question one has to look at other parts of the world where Islam is the majority religion and the condition of minorities in those countries...... Take any country,,ANY single country in our neighbourhood or in middle-east where Islam is in majority,...what is happening to the non islamic minorities there??? millennia old cultures, languages and traditions are systematically being wiped out with active state support...... Do you dispute???? What happened to Copts of Egypts? What happened to Kalash of Pakistan? What happened to Kafiristanis (NWFP) of Pakistan? What happened to Armenians in Turkey? What happened to Assyrians in Iraq? What happened to Lebanese Christians? What happened to Hindus and buddhists in Afghanistan? What happened to Zoroastrians in Persia? What is happening to Ahmedis all over middle east? What happened to Bahais in Persia? And finally what the heck exactly happened to Kashmiri Pandits??? Care to explain? Do you think you can explain their plights by some secular spin?? Try harder!
PRASANTH
MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA

35/D-82
SEP 11, 2012
07:16 PM
Prasanth,
I will answer you to the best of my ability over next one or two days in bits and pieces.. Meanwhile I request anyone who can shed more light on this to join in. 
About selective memory (remembering 1000 killed in Gujarat and not remembering millions killed in Bangladesh) - this was brought up by Fedup and I agree with that. We remember and register only what we can comprehend. Otherwise even calamitous events are forgotten. As an illustration I will give your own example - You mean to say that you were not aware of the trial going on in Bangladesh till now? Why? Of course there is bar on procedings being reported. But you are unaware of all the controversies surrounding the trial and the churning that is going in Bangladesh? Why? Will your Weltenschauung not allow the possibility that both in India and in Bangladesh, we are moving towards greater democratization and coming to terms with our pasts? Bangladesh has a better HDI and has role models like Mohd. Yunus of Grameen Bank (Ah, there are controversies there also.).
All the examples that you have given, none had democracy. Genuine democracy automatically results in pluralism sooner or later. But democracy without strong institutions is very vulnerable to fascist takeover as happened in Germany. Hitler was of course voted in. Some say that it was because of proportional representation electoral system that they had. 
You raise the issue of Kashmir. Kashmiri Pandits did not become a minority only in late 1980s. Their plight has to do with rise of Islamists fuelled by politicians playing party politics. Now there is greater realism all around. Ultimately the solution lies in more and more democracy in Kashmir.
R. SAROJA
BOMBAY, INDIA

36/D-85
SEP 11, 2012
07:59 PM
"In India we have a long history of communal confrontation between different communities." Saroja
This is not about riots. This is about the deliberate extermination, forced conversions and ethnic cleansing of Hindus, Sikhs and other non-Muslims in every part of the Indian sub-continent where Muslims are a majority - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir... All of them are now 99% Muslim except for Bangladesh which is now 93% Muslim and growing.
Had this happened in just one place where Muslims are a majority, you could call it coincidence or find some other factor. The fact that it happens sooner or later in every place where Muslims are a majority tells you that it is not a coincidence.
"About Bangladesh genocide, after 40 years, trial is underway. It seems past remains 'undead' till it is properly understood after which presumably it can be given a decent burial." Saroja
No Pakistani army officer or civilian has ever been tried or convicted of what they did to Hindus and others in East Pakistan in 1971. These belated trials in Bangladesh are an attempt to settle old political scores, not come to terms with what Muslims did to the Hindu community there.
Why are you so anxious to give a "decent burial" to the extermination of Hindus in 1971 in East Pakistan?
Kill 5-6 million Jews in WWII and the Jewish community makes sure even today that everyone remembers this.
Kill 3 million Hindus in 1971 and our sickulars crawl out anxiously from under the rocks, wanting to "bury it" as quickly as possible to avoid embarrassment to their Muslim pets.
"Anders Breivik's 'A European Declaration of Independence' is full of similar rant"
Smearing people by association is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.
FEDUP INDIAN
HYDERABAD, INDIA

38/D-104
SEP 11, 2012
09:29 PM
.....and our sickulars crawl out anxiously from under the rocks, wanting to "bury it" as quickly as possible to avoid embarrassment to their Muslim pets. 
What imagery! Haven't come across anything like this outside comrades manuals. 
Why are you so anxious to give a "decent burial" to the extermination of Hindus in 1971 in East Pakistan?
Kill 5-6 million Jews in WWII and the Jewish community makes sure even today that everyone remembers this.
Kill 3 million Hindus in 1971 ..
Giving a "decent burial" is not the same as forgetting it. About the remembering of six million jews dead in WWII, all credit to jews for their persistence in keeping alive the memory and for their hunting down Nazis as much as they could. But jews were not the only victims. In poland,for instance, jews formed 3 million out of 6 million poles eliminated. There were many Germans who died opposing Hitler when the rest of the world did not see him as evil. Their memories too are sacred. Similarly in Bangladesh, hindus were not the only victims. 
 These belated trials in Bangladesh are an attempt to settle old political scores, not come to terms with what Muslims did to the Hindu community there.
At least something has begun. About the trial being belated, India probably had the oppurtunity to enforce the trial in 1971? My knowledge is vague.
....where Muslims are a majority - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir... All of them are now 99% Muslim...
The other place where you come across the figure 99% is in election results in communist countries. That way Islamism shares many features with totalitarianism. Do not mistake muslims with islamists though all islamists are muslims. Communism has fallen, so will islamism. As far as India is concerned (because I feel more responsible for India, because I happen to be an Indian citizen), we are a democracy. As some one said, cure for ills of democracy is more democracy. Indian muslims are coming out against mobilization of fellow muslims as muslims.
In our subcontinent we have experienced partition more than once and bloodshed associated with that. To engage with past and to come to term with it- Germans have a name for that -Vergangenheitsbewältigung- we have to do that. Simple minded labelling will not solve anything. It will only alienate those who could be "agents of change"
R. SAROJA
BOMBAY, INDIA

39/D-1
SEP 12, 2012
12:00 AM
so what if I and 10 lakhs hindu decide to settle in Kashmir. What would we be called? legal resident of J&K and get a voting right?
Dear author think about tribal people who are driven out and being killed in their own land before putting up this kind of argument.
ABHI
PUNE, INDIA

40/D-73
SEP 12, 2012
04:53 PM
Look at the gems from a 'professional historian' (they may draw applause from 'eminent' historians) :
"By referring to people who don’t share our religion or language as “illegal”"
They are not refered to as illegal because they don't share  our religion or language, but because they are NOT Indians, they are Bangladeshis who have entered India illegally and staying here illegally. (May be this is a deliberate attempt at sidetracking the real issue).
"Even the British did not refer to us, their colonised subjects, as “illegal”;"
If at all, it is the British who must be terms illegal - not Indians.
K.SURESH
BANGALORE, INDIA

41/D-77
SEP 12, 2012
05:40 PM
 @Saroja- You said—“ we are moving towards greater democratization and coming to terms with our pasts? Bangladesh has a better HDI and has role models like Mohd Yunis---
Is that your defence against industrial scale ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Bangladesh????? Why are you digressing? The point here is Hindus were wiped out of Bangladesh and their population dropped from 40%ish to single digit percentile…..And I gave you 100 other examples from history where native cultures and populations were ethnic cleansed after Islam became the majority religion—and your defence? It all happened because there WAS NO DEMOCRACY!!!!! :)))) Lol..., since there was no democracy millions of Armenians were massacred by Turkic islamists, right?? Since there was no democracy in Egypt Copts are getting exterminated, right??? Look, you may get away with such juvenile arguments in a JNU class room, but not here…..let us see, Hamaz was democratically elected in Gaza trip… and by your logic I assume Palestinian Christians ( or whoever is left of them) must be thriving now!!!! Oh..wait last time I checked there was a huge protest by Palestinian Christians against FORCED CONVERSIONS and Kidnapping of women by Palestinians!!!!!
And you said like communism, islamism too will fall? Really? Communism was a very short lived phenomena, conceptualised by very mortal, secular people and tried by few countries and they failed and communism was buried forever.. but Islamism?? It was born in 7th century and thrives on people’s blind belief in super natural, prophets and word of god…. No one can change it, and Islamism is here to say… thank you very much… you give them democracy; they will elect the most radical islamist to power..… just wait and watch..!
You say----Do not mistake muslims with islamists -----
You have no idea what islam or Islamism is……. Islam IS Islamism, you can’t separate the two…. It is a complete way of life, every activity of human society is predefined and written down, details of every personal act of a human being is written down……. You can’t escape it, there is no way out, it is a one-way ticket, if you come out of it the punishment is…well…...you know the drill! !!!!… that too is written down.. …the notions that like other societies , Islamic societies will also become liberal, enlightened societies if they get exposed to genuine democracy is a myth. There is no empirical evidence to prove your hypothesis, it is only wishful thinking. History tells us otherwise, right from Turkey to Indonesia – the so called Islamic democracies are only getting more radicalised and islamists are coming to power….
You say “ Indian muslims are coming out against mobilization of fellow muslims as muslims.”
Totally untrue….Last time I checked Indian Muslims are coming out in support of their arrested jihadi brethren, Every single arrest of a jihadi has been branded as a fake arrest, even the very existence of Islamic terror modules are being denied!!! in fact even the the amar jawan jyothi in Mumbai was destroyed in support of the illegal Bangladeshi immigrants….When Bangladeshis invaded parts of our country, all we saw was their indian co-religionists coming in support of them AGAINST their fellow countrymen (bodos) …….!!!!
You say “Simple minded labelling will not solve anything. It will only alienate those who could be "agents of change"—
…well…. There are no such agents of change…. They don’t exist,,, even if they do, they are confined to acting movies in Bollywood!!! Good luck,,,(,,though, I really hope you are right!!)
PRASANTH
MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA

42/D-119
SEP 12, 2012
09:36 PM
" The people of INDIA, PAKISTAN & BANGLADESH were all INDIANS till 14 / 15 August 1947 when they opted to be either INDIAN or PAKI. The choice was not an "instant process" and the exchange of population between INDIA & PAKISTAN continued till 1955 and thereafter it stabilised. --------------------------------------------------- So the people who OPTED to live in INDIA became INDIANS & the people who OPTED for PAKISTAN/ BANGLADESH became PAKI/ BANGLADESHI. ------------------------------------------------- Now after F***ING up their countries with ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM, if they want to come back to India, it will OPEN UP A PANDORAS BOX. ---------------------------------------------- The only option that can be allowed is for INDIAN MUSLIMS "UNHAPPY in HINDU DOMINATED INDIA" to migrate to Pakistan/ Bangladesh as these two countries have been "CARVED OUT OF INDIA IN 1947" explicitely for all Indian Muslims who "felt then/ is feeling now/ will feel anythime" , that MUSLIMS CAN NEVER EVER be HAPPY in HINDU dominated India.      
CHARAN DEWRY
GUWAHATI, INDIA

43/D-12
SEP 13, 2012
04:43 AM
 Prasanth,

>>you may get away with such juvenile arguments in a JNU class room
I am not from JNU and my background is Physics. Whatever is my position, it has been shaped by my living in contemporary India.I am just curious about antipathy towards JNU on part of some people...
>>There are no such agents of change…. They don’t exist,,, even if they do, they are confined to acting movies in Bollywood!!!

Funny that you mention Bollywood. I worked as a volunteer with an NGO in the aftermath of Bombay riots of 1992/3. I remember someone making a remark – “Now the leadership of muslim community rests with Shabana Azmi, Sunil Dutt and Dilip Kumar”. Infact Dilip Kumar was toying with the idea of floating ‘Secular Muslim Front’. Are you aware of “Muslims for Secular Democracy” which was formed about 9 years ago to fight radicalization of Islam in India. http://www.mfsd.org/msddeclaration.htm . Here is a recent article by one of the founding members . http://sabrang.com/cc/archive/2012/July2012/cover.html
>>When Bangladeshis invaded parts of our country, all we saw was their indian co-religionists coming in support of them AGAINST their fellow countrymen (bodos) …….!!!!
Bodos and Assamese muslims were driven out of their homes by armed hooligans of the other. Though the trigger was murder of some by one side and retaliatory murders by the other, tension has been there between the two groups over land use. This has been twisted into hindu muslim confrontation issue . As far as the Azad maidan demonstration and subsequent violence is concerned, it has come in for criticism within muslims also. http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/aug/180812-mumbai-Condemn-them.htm
           >> you give them democracy; they will elect the most radical islamist to power..
Hitler also came to power through ballot.
>> And you said like communism, islamism too will fall? Really? Communism was a very short lived phenomena, conceptualised by very mortal, secular people and tried by few countries and they failed and communism was buried forever..
Well, Hitler accounted for about 20 million deaths, but Stalin surpassed with over 60 million deaths and Mao beat both of them with over 75 million deaths. Yet we have several communist parties in our country operating in a democratic framework. They have ruled over a long time in Kerala and West Bengal. These states have better HDI compared to most states in India. So democracy, if it can tame communism in India, why can’t you see similar fate for Islamism? I don’t know about communism being short lived, it still is alive in the largest country of the world.
R. SAROJA
BOMBAY, INDIA

44/D-19
SEP 13, 2012
08:42 AM
"Are you aware of “Muslims for Secular Democracy” which was formed about 9 years ago to fight radicalization of Islam in India" Saroja
A few weeks ago, the Mirwaiz of Kashmir compared Pandits to Israeli settlers in the West Bank - apparently Hindus are now illegal immigrants in parts of India. Now that "Muslims for Secular Democracy" has been formed, has this swine been removed from his post and Pandits allowed to return?
Perhaps this is another issue you want to "bury" along with the 3 million Hindus murdered in East Pakistan in 1971.
FEDUP INDIAN
HYDERABAD, INDIA

45/D-37
SEP 13, 2012
11:38 AM
Saroja Mami,
[[Are you aware of “Muslims for Secular Democracy” which was formed about 9 years ago to fight radicalization of Islam in India - Saroja]]
This is the first time most of us have heard of such an organization. When an organization doesn't find patronage amongst the very people it is supposed to be supported by, is it any wonder the rest of the world does't know about it?
[[As far as the Azad maidan demonstration and subsequent violence is concerned, it has come in for criticism within muslims also. http://www.mid-day.com/news/2012/aug/180812-mumbai-Condemn-them.htm]]
Wow! And this is supposed to mean what? That Muslims have suddenly renounced the use of violence and wanton destruction? Isolated voices have always existed among Muslims, but they've only served to act as the window-dressing to enable the extremists to do their job. It is a useful counter-point that many Muslims (and non-Muslims like you) throw at people (who accuse Muslims of being violent) to say: "Look, Muslims are condemning this incident, so ordinary Muslims are a peaceful lot and it is a few mischief mongers who did this, so you can't use this to justify painting all Muslims with the same brush and if you do so, you are a communal Hindu." 
ALAKSHYENDRA
HYDERABAD, INDIA

46/D-52
SEP 13, 2012
03:15 PM
@Saroja- 
-------Hitler also came to power through ballot.---------
How exactly will that contradict my point?? (that 'democracy' will not stop islamism) It actually supports my argument that democracy has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing of different cultures by islam over the centuries..
---So democracy, if it can tame communism in India, why can’t you see similar fate for Islamism?---
There is no comparison between communism and islamism, the former is a very secular ideology based own rational thoughts (well sort of)... but the latter is pure BELIEF based on 'word of god' WHICH CAN NOT BE CHALLENGED- you try to challenge it and we will have armies of fanatics burning down embassies and murdering ambassodors!! Communism surely changed over the years, it is surely trying to learn from its mistakes- Islamism cant do that, it CAN  NOT change, it will not change because it is all written down- and as the last prophet clearly stated "he is the last messenger and koran is the final word of god".......End of story..... anyone triying to change this will be inviting death....Mirza Ghulam Ahmad -founder of Ahmadiya sect - tried to change this in 19th century, and guess what? His followers are being exterminated, from Pakistan to Indonesia even now.....
And communism as  Carl Marx defined is dead, yes there are splinter groups in India to US calling themselves communist parties, but it is very unlikely that they will be able to build another soviet union based on Marx's teaching. Indian communists are only communist by namesake (communist parties in a parliamentary democracy??? gwhat an absurdity!!!!)
And finally, cosmetic changes can't fix a product which has very fundamental design problems...... ..................
PRASANTH
MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA

47/D-58
SEP 13, 2012
04:40 PM
Fedup Indian/Alakshyendra/ Prasanth/
I shall reply to you in full later. Meanwhile you can have a look at www.indianexpress.com/news/tilting-at-windmills/629646/0 
Prashanth, do you know how many communist parties are there in India? Like religious sects, dividing and multiplying... Communism, fascism, Islamism, hindutva, christian evangelism etc have more in common than otherwise..
R. SAROJA
BOMBAY, INDIA

48/D-78
SEP 13, 2012
08:30 PM
Will YASMIN, ANWAAR, NASER AHEMED, R. SAROJA etc etc please promptly proceed to the GULF ISLAMIC COUNTRIES- Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Beharine etc etc and convince the ARAB MUSLIMS that "THERE ARE NO ILLEGAL HUMAN BEINGS"???? --- ELSE SHUT UP.  ----------------------------------------------------- The INDIAN MUSLIMS (which include the Pak & Bangla MUSLIMS) are treated as "SCHEDULDED CASTE MUSLIMS" by Arab Muslims even during HAJJ, pushing them to SLUM LIKE AREAS while the ARAB MUSLIMS & WHITE MUSLIMS live in FIVE STAR ROOMS during HAJJ. ------------------- So much for equality in ISLAM.    
CHARAN DEWRY
GUWAHATI, INDIA

49/D-90
SEP 13, 2012
11:40 PM
Dewry,
>> proceed to the GULF ISLAMIC COUNTRIES- Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Beharine etc etc and convince the ARAB MUSLIMS that "THERE ARE NO ILLEGAL HUMAN BEINGS"?
So you want India to be at their level!!! I am not surprised.
ANWAAR
DALLAS, UNITED STATES





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14th Sept.
I  am not able to take it. If I am going to act like a lightning rod, I am going to burn myself out. I must yet I can't.  Am I going to stay up all night till I am dead tired and then squeeze words out of myself?

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15th Sept.
Was it only yesterday that I was down in the dumps? I survived !

Now I can really understand Doris Lessing's The Four Gated City.  I don't have the DNA to be a self hater, I think that is why I can not ever be the Hater. Like a fool I will put myself under this blast of hate, but I will counter it, I must. I refuse to be the Hated.
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Posted by at
Location: Unknown location.

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